Curse

aspi · Jan 13, 2011, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

If the skill were first linked to mysticism, this would be a good change. But if it wasn't, then assassins and warriors would once again get more use out of it.

I have no problem with that, same as critical agility. Would be fair to make the derv the scythe master again.

reaper with no name · Jan 13, 2011, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

The Dervish needs an update for two reasons:

1. Their primary function, frontline enchantment juggler, sucks.

2. Warriors and Assassins use the scythe better.

Since the Dervish's primary function is that of a frontline caster, reason #2 wouldn't be a problem if their primary function was good (yes, people would still bitch about it, but they will always bitch about something so :P). See it this way: an Assassin can get better DPS than any caster while wanding due to Critical Strike, yet no one cares because wanding is not the casters' primary function and it sucks anyways.

The proper way to go about this whole Dervish problem is to, thus:

1. Make enchantment juggling worthwhile.

2. Nerf scythes so that it's still good but not better than other melee weapons, if we care about scythe-wars and scythe-sins - I don't. (We don't want it to suck as bad as wanding, since we still have an entire attribute line of skills for it)

Looking at this thread, it's plain that the player base don't want things to be done the proper way.

Who do we have to blame for powercreep and bad game mechanics?

The one problem with this line of thinking is that the scythe was originally designed to be intimately linked to enchantment juggling.

If we want to go about making enchantment juggling viable, the scythe will have to be part of it. The trick is, how to make enchantment juggling with the scythe competitive? Even if pure scythe builds were nerfed (which would be very difficult, I'd imagine), there's still the question of how to make enchantment juggling powerful enough to justify the attribute points, skill slots, and energy costs.

It's certainly possible (especially if these new flash enchantments don't have cast times or aftercast delays, as some suspect), but it'll still require a lot of work. We'd need to be spamming and removing enchantments constantly, just to get a level of damage that would qualify as reasonable (assuming, of course, that the enchantments and/or removal attacks provide enough damage). If these new flash enchantments aren't spammable enough, well, then the concept is pretty much screwed.

And if they are spammable enough to make the playstyle competitive, then we've still got energy to worry about (but that should be where mysticism comes in; ideally it should make it possible to get back about as much energy from enchantment juggling as it costs, much like how necromancers can get enough energy from the death of a minion to summon a new one).

Also, I bet my dervish can get more damage with a wand than your sin with my super-secret Vow of Strength wanding build!

Haggis of Doom · Jan 14, 2011, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

The one problem with this line of thinking is that the scythe was originally designed to be intimately linked to enchantment juggling.

That's actually what I missed ^^ It's not a problem since it completes the puzzle. Instead of nerfing the scythe, ANet could go back to their original intent and make this weapon even more linked to enchantment juggling.

Yes, doing what I suggest as "right" is much more work than tying AoHM to Mysticism and making it work with physical buffs. However, I do believe it is worth the effort to make the Dervish what it was meant to be instead of some band-aid patch to stop player complaints.

NapTooN · Jan 14, 2011, 09:51 AM // 09:51

I don't know if the "AoE" nature of the scythe is the reason why other classes abuse it, but if it is, just do the following:

Turn the scythe into a weapon that normally only hits 1 enemy, then add this to Mysticism:

"For every 3rd Rank in Mysticism, you hit 1 additional foe with your scythe".

So all the people that say: "I don't want to use many points in Mysticism to play my Dervish" would only need Rank 6 (not that much) in Mysticism to get the old hit-3-enemies-scythe from before, people that invest up to 15 Ranks, can hit up to 6 enemies.

I like the idea of the reapplication of Enchantments but i would change it a bit to keep possible abuse as small as possible. My full Mysticism text would be the following: (old text about Energy and Health gain [maybe a bit improved as well]) For every 3rd Rank in Mysticism, you hit 1 additional foe with your scythe. If a Dervish-Enchantment on you is removed by another skill, it has a 5% (+3% for each Rank in Mysticism) chance of being reapplied for it's initial energy cost.

With Mysticism 15 you would have a 50% chance of a reapplication if your Dervish-Enchantment was stripped or removed by a Scythe attack or other Dervish-Skills. I'm not sure about the energy cost part, but i think it's the only way to prevent this mechanic from abuse.

reaper with no name · Jan 14, 2011, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by NapTooN

I don't know if the "AoE" nature of the scythe is the reason why other classes abuse it, but if it is, just do the following:

Turn the scythe into a weapon that normally only hits 1 enemy, then add this to Mysticism:

"For every 3rd Rank in Mysticism, you hit 1 additional foe with your scythe".

So all the people that say: "I don't want to use many points in Mysticism to play my Dervish" would only need Rank 6 (not that much) in Mysticism to get the old hit-3-enemies-scythe from before, people that invest up to 15 Ranks, can hit up to 6 enemies.

Where were you when I put this idea up for discussion in Sardelac so many months ago?

Bandwagon · Jan 14, 2011, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by NapTooN

I don't know if the "AoE" nature of the scythe is the reason why other classes abuse it, but if it is, just do the following:

Turn the scythe into a weapon that normally only hits 1 enemy, then add this to Mysticism:

"For every 3rd Rank in Mysticism, you hit 1 additional foe with your scythe".

So all the people that say: "I don't want to use many points in Mysticism to play my Dervish" would only need Rank 6 (not that much) in Mysticism to get the old hit-3-enemies-scythe from before, people that invest up to 15 Ranks, can hit up to 6 enemies.

I like the idea of the reapplication of Enchantments but i would change it a bit to keep possible abuse as small as possible. My full Mysticism text would be the following: (old text about Energy and Health gain [maybe a bit improved as well]) For every 3rd Rank in Mysticism, you hit 1 additional foe with your scythe. If a Dervish-Enchantment on you is removed by another skill, it has a 5% (+3% for each Rank in Mysticism) chance of being reapplied for it's initial energy cost.

With Mysticism 15 you would have a 50% chance of a reapplication if your Dervish-Enchantment was stripped or removed by a Scythe attack or other Dervish-Skills. I'm not sure about the energy cost part, but i think it's the only way to prevent this mechanic from abuse.

Tbh, linking scythe effectiveness to Mysticism (an attribute that would be chosen to be linked just because of the fact its the Dervish primary attribute) feels very "game-y", as in it was simply added for mechanical reasons. I think if they wanted to distinguish Dervish Scythe vs other-scythe they could make it so that you need 13+ scythe mastery to hit 3 targets (while anything less hits 2 targets). Obviously cons can get around this for non primaries, but its not like scythe was or will be used in SCs (where cons are actually widely used and required) to the extent that Hundred Blades + swords are today (this "MIGHT" change based on how powercreep'd the new derv skills are).

Also, linking a % chance for an ability to activate (were not talking weapon mods, were talking about skills and primary attribute functionality) is really hard to balance, as they have to account for the fact that while the reapplications of enchants are triggering, the dervish is a power house, but while the enchants aren't reapplying, they are lackluster. % chance makes it so that the player is less in control of his/her character and more at the mercy of RNG.

fr.aodhan · Jan 14, 2011, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by NapTooN

If a Dervish-Enchantment on you is removed by another skill, it has a 5% (+3% for each Rank in Mysticism) chance of being reapplied for it's initial energy cost.

With Mysticism 15 you would have a 50% chance of a reapplication if your Dervish-Enchantment was stripped or removed by a Scythe attack or other Dervish-Skills. I'm not sure about the energy cost part, but i think it's the only way to prevent this mechanic from abuse.

I considered a mechanic like this and the numbers are ridiculous. Consider that many enchantments have damage on the front and end. You will get very powerful spikes from the Dervish which may, in fact, not stop spiking for a much longer time than intended.

For fun, consider Mystic Sandstorm on a bar with the PvE enchantments (which will end up doing a lot of armor-ignoring damage and reset the Sandstorm) and Pious Renewal, which will mitigate the energy loss.

NapTooN · Jan 14, 2011, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Where were you when I put this idea up for discussion in Sardelac so many months ago?

I never read in Sardelac since i registered here

Quote:

Originally Posted by fr.aodhan

I considered a mechanic like this and the numbers are ridiculous. Consider that many enchantments have damage on the front and end. You will get very powerful spikes from the Dervish which may, in fact, not stop spiking for a much longer time than intended.

For fun, consider Mystic Sandstorm on a bar with the PvE enchantments (which will end up doing a lot of armor-ignoring damage and reset the Sandstorm) and Pious Renewal, which will mitigate the energy loss.

It was just a rough idea of course, balancing is not my job

. Easy way to stop this from happening: change it to "When a Dervish-Enchantment is removed from you by an enemy, it has a X% chance of reapplication..." If you do it like that, you can even increase the numbers so you have 100% at Myst 15.

reaper with no name · Jan 15, 2011, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by NapTooN

It was just a rough idea of course, balancing is not my job

. Easy way to stop this from happening: change it to "When a Dervish-Enchantment is removed from you by an enemy, it has a X% chance of reapplication..." If you do it like that, you can even increase the numbers so you have 100% at Myst 15.

Suggested that one too.

b0nkuz · Jan 20, 2011, 01:17 AM // 01:17

i actually quite enjoy playing my derv and with a decent scythe build it does plenty of damage. i would say enchant juggling is where the update is most needed.

i however do not like the way assassins and wars can do more damage with a scythe. this is due to there being problems with those classes not the derv. i think changes like warriors endurance endurance to only effect warrior attack skills and way of the master being either nerfed or just plain removed from the game.

wars have armor penetration and 3 primary weapons, seriously gtfo of our weapon.
assassins have crits because daggers do less damage, why they can apply it so well to other weapons is beyond me

i would point out some of these points have already been raised but i think they need restating

saint666 · Jan 20, 2011, 09:03 AM // 09:03

nah man, it's scythes that are broken. The fact that a broken class like the Dervish can get good dps off it is a problem, the scythe is so broken even eles/necros swinging that thing can get good dps off it. Spear chucking warrior/bow using sins? They are kinda crappy if you asked me, way inferior to their primary weapons. You can literally auto swing someone/three to death with a scythe.

Sankt Hallvard · Jan 20, 2011, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

not pass the brainstorming stage? They betetr be for god's sake we should be seeing it within this month...at this rate we'll not see all those updates. But yeh probably some half assed buff or buff with subsequent nerf to destroy multiclassing even more.

Ahhahaha. "within this month"... Even if you had said within this YEAR you would have been wrong. Bimonthly updates, man.

D H U U U M · Jan 20, 2011, 06:17 PM // 18:17

for me all what i wish is having a good attack skils that deal alot of damge///dhuum avatar and some skills that will allow the derv to do speed clears like sf ^^

also its good to make derv apply death plenty with some skills

b0nkuz · Jan 21, 2011, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Its not scythes that are broken and even though the dervish is not as good as it perhaps could be, they are not broken. The things that are broken are the absurd critical rate of scythe sins coupled with the massive energy gain they get from it.

Also what is broken is zealous vow and warriors endurance. Both give way too much energy when coupled with a scythes aoe abilities. Zealous vow definitely needs a change but if it isnt, it should be moved to mysticism so every class cant just run around with a scythe and kill every one.

The fact that all melee weapons can kill so quickly is the insane buffs that they receive. soh is clearly op which is shown by the huge damage difference it has with it pvp counterpart. You can the still buff that further with aohm(only for scythes) or ootv/oop and then can buff further with weapons spells such as splinter or gdw. The fact that so much synergy is possible is the problem. All of the buffs put together do more damage than then scythe.

saint666 · Jan 21, 2011, 09:38 AM // 09:38

If it's not scythes that are broken, explain to me why it's the only weapon that can hit over 100 dmg from auto attacking and on multiple enemies, that's only from Asuran scan and AoHM. Scythes are the only weapon where skill damage actually play second fiddle to weapon damage. You gotta ask why other crit/WE builds are inferior compared to crit/WE scythe, scythes are the only good weapons, others suck? 41 damage on 3 targets = 123 damage on auto swing, what other weapon can do that. Don't even compare crit sword/WE sword with crit scythe/WE scythe.

For scythes, lower max, higher min damage, and chance of hitting 2 adjacent foes based on Scythe Mastery rank.

Sankt Hallvard · Jan 21, 2011, 10:30 AM // 10:30

If the enemy balls up for the scythe aoe effect they deserve to be punished imo.

b0nkuz · Jan 21, 2011, 10:52 AM // 10:52

most of the time you dont get three targets balled up, it usually just one or two but if you can always get three gratz. You should also take into effect the added armor of hm. you wont hit 41 unless you crit with auto swings against a 80al foe which is mostly what hm is. single target. yes it is more than other weapons but only because of its aoe nature. if you run a decent sword build on war or daggers on sin you will get a similar single person dps as a scythe dervish

saint666 · Jan 21, 2011, 12:43 PM // 12:43

It must just be me, I can hit 50s on 80 al dummy, 61 on crit. I'm hitting 100s with auto swings on 80al dummy non crit, with just AoHM and asuran scan. Dagger crits for 24 on 80al, sword crits for 31 on crit. Non crit scythe damage is higher than crit damage for most weapons. Sword/dagger builds are skill/energy intensive intensive, if you are not spamming attacks you are not doing damage. Daggers get punished by blinds/blocks especially hard because of chain mechanics. With scythes auto swing for the win. It's the skills for daggers/swords that make them good, while scythes are good because the are scythes. With daggers you need death blossom, with WE sword you need power attack if you want good dps, with scythe you can just auto attack ftw. You can spam protectors strike with 0 strength and get good dps off it, try that with daggers or sword. The absurd max damage is the main reason why the scythe is broken. You can crit all day on a sword for 31 damage it's not all that impressive at all, 14ap on an 17 damage isn't impressive either, that's why daggerwars/swordsins are relatively even, even daggerrangers come close, most of their damage come from their skills and the one with the runes wins. Really what is the problem with daggerwars/swordsins, none, but only with scythes?

The fact is that, you can hit multiple enemies at the same time, but most people just don't bother to, cause enemies die too fast anyways, you have the choice. You have an aoe attack by just equipping a scythe without even wasting a slot. Not saying scythes shouldn't hit multiple enemies, that's it's flavour, but not without investment. The chance should scale with Scythe Mastery, just like Dagger.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jan 21, 2011, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by saint666

If it's not scythes that are broken, explain to me why it's the only weapon that can hit over 100 dmg from auto attacking and on multiple enemies, that's only from Asuran scan and AoHM. Scythes are the only weapon where skill damage actually play second fiddle to weapon damage. You gotta ask why other crit/WE builds are inferior compared to crit/WE scythe, scythes are the only good weapons, others suck? 41 damage on 3 targets = 123 damage on auto swing, what other weapon can do that. Don't even compare crit sword/WE sword with crit scythe/WE scythe.

For scythes, lower max, higher min damage, and chance of hitting 2 adjacent foes based on Scythe Mastery rank.

Scythes are not broken because without PvE skills, scythe dps is in line with other weapons. If you set up the most powerful dervish hero build you can imagine it will have a hard time outshining Hundred Blades, Dragon Slash, Death Blossom spam, etc. So the problem isn't the scythe or the dervish profession, it's the PvE skills. As other have pointed out already, AoHM works on any profession, so when you add in the advantages of other professions' primary attributes they end up being better than the dervish.

As proof of this point, consider how many people run around with teams of 3 hero dervishes to provide awesome damage. Oh yeah... without the PvE skills they are not that awesome.

Xenomortis · Jan 21, 2011, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Scythes are not broken because without PvE skills, scythe dps is in line with other weapons.

Without any skills, the weapon with the highest damage potential in the game hits AoE.
Yeah, that's pretty broken already.

That doesn't mean it's necessarily overpowered.